Bad News for Victims from Nancy Leigh DeMoss and Holly Elliff — by Katy
Katy (one of our readers) suggested we highlight the errors that Nancy Leigh DeMoss lays on abuse victims in her books and other media. We asked Katy if she would review a program that Katy pointed out to us from the website Revive Our Hearts. This website purports to have as its purpose, “Calling Women to Freedom, Fullness, & Fruitfulness in Christ.” If this program is indicative of the teaching found there, it would be more appropriately worded, “Calling Women to Bondage, Emptiness, and Barrenness in the Enemy.” So, here is Katy. Her comments are interspersed with quotes from the program, and the boldfacing is Katy’s:
Nancy Leigh DeMoss is a popular Christian author of many books for women. She leads something she calls “True Woman” conferences and has a radio program. I was first introduced to her in a church Bible study for women. We studied her book Lies Women Believe, and I felt intimidated and scared as I read her views on parenting and marriage. I was new to this church, new to the women there, and I was very recently divorced from my abusive husband. After almost seven years of emotional, psychological, and physical abuse, I was looking for hope. Nancy’s book was probably the worst thing a woman like me could have been reading at that time. Her brief mention of domestic violence and her dangerous “Biblical” guidance on that topic made me toss the book.
I decided to search out her radio archives online to see if she had fleshed out her thoughts on domestic violence – which she had, in a sort of “John-Piper-clarification” way. She and Holly Elliff, a pastor’s wife in Arkansas and frequent visitor on Nancy’s program, discussed domestic violence in July of 2006. Below is a partial transcript (you can listen to the entire thing here, but it will probably disgust you if you are a survivor) :
http://www.reviveourhearts.com/radio/revive-our-hearts/physical-abuse/
Holly Elliff: Maria brought up the issue of domestic violence, and what if you’re being abused in your marriage—you’re in an abusive marriage. I think that word is greatly misused in our society. So sometimes, maybe you’re in a tough marriage, like Shirley mentioned earlier, where for 29 years you’re experiencing verbal abuse. Maybe your husband is coming and going. There are tough issues.
Many times in our society that’s viewed as abuse. But you’re talking about literal, physical abuse where you’re in danger. I would say we need to first of all go to the Lord for wisdom in that circumstance because every situation is different. So there’s no way that Nancy and I could say, “Okay, this is what you do if you’re in that circumstance.”
Note well here: Nancy and Holly say that the only treatment that qualifies as “abuse” is when he is making a move to kill you. So when my husband punished me for sloppy housekeeping by not taking me to the hospital when I was in labor, and I had to give birth in my car, that does NOT qualify as “abuse” in these ladies’ world. It is easy to say heartless things like this to other women when you’ve never suffered them yourself. Also note that 29 years of being verbally ripped to shreds only qualifies as a “tough issue” for Holly. Not abuse. Why does it seem like it’s always these Pharisees that get a platform and a microphone?
Holly Elliff: “I would say we need to first of all go to the Lord for wisdom in that circumstance because every situation is different. So there’s no way that Nancy and I could say, “Okay, this is what you do if you’re in that circumstance.” I would encourage that woman to draw godly counselors around her who know her, who know her husband, who know her circumstance on a firsthand level. Go to those godly counselors—I’m not talking about just somebody in the business of counseling. I’m talking about maybe a pastor or another couple that you know has a godly marriage,”
Here is the common church response. With no knowledge of the tactics used by abusers, these women shun “professional” counselors, insist that “every situation is different” because they have NO idea what the appropriate responses are, and imply that the Biblical response is to surround yourself with laypeople in the church – as if the normal couples in “Godly” marriages will have any clue what to do in this circumstance! While surrounding yourself with supportive people is essential, it doesn’t appear that this is for the purpose of saving the woman. The purpose is only to save the marriage:
Holly Elliff: “You go to him first and confront him with the truth. Then, if he doesn’t listen, you go back to him with two or three others, and you confront him with the truth. If he doesn’t respond, then you widen that circle and you draw more people into that group of folks who are helping you to face that issue.”
“I think if she literally is in physical danger, then with those godly friends she confronts her husband with that truth. Then I do think, at that point, there are times when she may need to separate herself—not for the purpose of severing that marriage, but for the purpose of protecting herself or her children.
The bottom line is what her heart is toward that marriage, because God’s heart is going to be redemption of that marriage. So if her desire is not just to separate—just to seek her own way, as Proverbs says—but if her desire is to separate for the purpose of physical protection, then I believe she can do that.”
And here we have it. Nancy and Holly make some incredible & dangerous assumptions:
#1. a woman should continue to confront a dangerous and violent man with maybe 1 or 2 untrained people from her church, repeating the process with more people if it doesn’t work. These ladies assume that this man will not kill his wife in this process before they get to “round two or three”. They also display their lack of understanding of abuse, because they seem to think he will respond to this.
#2. The burdens are clearly laid on the victim, to withstand this abuse and “keep her heart right”. It is astounding that Nancy and Holly pronounce to know the will of God in these situations – that God would always desire the wife to reconcile. It is amazing to me that while Holly and Nancy have absolutely no idea what steps a woman should take in this situation, and have zero experience or wisdom to impart to women facing violence, they nevertheless know without a shadow of a doubt that God’s will is for your marriage to continue.
After I went to the women’s ministry leader and confessed what my husband was doing, my pastor took my husband to lunch. That was it. Whatever lies my husband told my pastor, once that lunch was over, my husband never returned to the church and the abuse became more violent. The pastor never once spoke to me about this, and never checked on the situation again. I have no idea what went on in that secret lunch meeting. The women’s ministry leader at my church would not help me pack my things, would not even pray with me for my imminent journey – she said she couldn’t pray for that because it was against God’s will. I had 3 babies, no job, no friends, 2,000 miles from my family, the church abandoned me, and my husband was prowling at my door threatening me with violence.
God alone rescued us. He hears the cries of the oppressed! It was clearly not God’s will for our marriage to continue, and this has been confirmed to me over and over since that time 4 years ago. I am now completely free. Being a single mom with 3 young children is a walk in the park compared to what we’ve been through, and God is doing amazing new things in our lives. To God alone be the Glory.
I think when it comes to church leaders like Nancy, Holly, John Piper and others – those without wisdom should not give counsel. These leaders simply do not have knowledge & wisdom on these issues, and it’s because they don’t care to educate themselves. What a detriment to the body of Christ!
Thank you, Katy! Excellent job giving us all a heads up on DeMoss and Elliff.
“…those without wisdom should not give counsel.”
Nicely summarized!
It really does all boil down to an issue of arrogance and pride. They sit up on their lofty thrones and preach down at everybody else, but they are too aloof from the reality of these people and too busy in the abstract to really see. And when people confront them, even lovingly, with how they have been deeply wounded by their teachings? They accuse them of being troublemakers or chafing at “strong leadership” and authority.
I went to see Steve Bell in concert a few weeks back and he introduced his new song “descent,” which is a poem by Malcolm Guite put to music. It about sums it up…
“They sought to soar into the skies
Those classic gods of high renown
For lofty pride aspires to rise
But you came down.
You dropped down from the mountains sheer
Forsook the eagle for the dove
The other Gods demanded fear
But you gave love
Where chiselled marble seemed to freeze
Their abstract and perfected form
… Compassion brought you to your knees
Your blood was warm
They called for blood in sacrifice
Their victims on an altar bled
When no one else could pay the price
You died instead
They towered above our mortal plain,
Dismissed this restless flesh with scorn,
Aloof from birth and death and pain,
But you were born.
Born to these burdens, borne by all
Born with us all ‘astride the grave’
Weak, to be with us when we fall,
And strong to save.”~Malcolm Guite
Desley – Wonderful! What great lyrics. And yes, pride is the issue. I agree. Ignorance coupled with arrogance is a horrid combo. And I ask people like DeMoss: where do you get your idea that you can make these pronouncements as if your word is binding on others? You might say it comes from Scripture, but how is it that we don’t see it? False prophets and prophetesses have come and gone over the ages, doing the very same thing.
Jeff, I think this is one of their critical logic flaws:
“…God’s heart is going to be redemption of that marriage.”
They are making a huge erroneous assumption about God’s heart in a matter they don’t understand, while simultaneously exposing a poor understanding of the biblical concept of redemption.
It would be more accurate to say: God’s heart is for redemption of His child from covenants of abusive bondage.
Yes, Joe. The following Scripture comes to my mind, and it would seem that people like this need to be quiet and sit back and seriously think about it -
1 Corinthians 2:14-16 ESV
(14) The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
(15) The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
(16) “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
So many people have it all figured out. These kind of folk claim to instruct the Lord.
They sit up on their lofty thrones and preach down at everybody else, but they are too aloof from the reality of these people and too busy in the abstract to really see.
Exactly. Like so many others. I call it “Marie Antionette Syndrome.” My husband said this today: “Somehow, we all think that another person’s experience isn’t important or painful because we haven’t been through it.” Why is that?! Maybe it DOES take supernatural compassion for us to understand what a person is going through . . . so why not ask God? Why, instead of forming their own little arrogant opinions, don’t some of these people who are speaking SO authoritatively, ask God for compassion for what others might be going through?
“Why, instead of forming their own little arrogant opinions, don’t some of these people who are speaking SO authoritatively, ask God for compassion for what others might be going through?”
But that would imply that you don’t know it all. In all honesty, I just do not see compassion in these people even if they were to fully understand the situation. For instance, in John Piper’s TULIP study he arrogantly detailed how on one occasion he berated a depressed man he was counseling for alleged distortions in the man’s thinking that may have been contributing to his depression, “How dare you!” I believe was what JP yelled at the man. As a person who suffers from depression and has scratched my way up from the pits of Borderline Personality Disorder, I was sitting there grimacing at how this would have made a depressed man feel.
Knowing it all must feel pretty good in their superiority; but at the end of the day know-it-alls find it impossible to relate to human suffering – and even more impossible to actually want to.
Oh my, here we go again. One day with it happening to them, and all this would change and we have all lived through it long enough, to know that is the truth. So, the counsel here is, to ask the Lord, whether you should call the police or let him beat you to death? I personally don’t need to ask the Lord, because I know Him and I know what His answer would be.
Yeah. And what about all of those women who have been isolated for 20 years and know no one at all. Or what about all those pastors who abuse their own wives, so they won’t be of any help. Hmmm. Makes things a tish more difficult, eh? DeMoss has never been married, never had children and yet sees herself as an expert in domestic issues. That should raise the ever-waving-red-flag, if anything should.
What world is she from? First of all she is assuming you are dealing with a non-dangerous, “Christian”, because that is what Matthew 18 is all about. “If your B-R-O-T-H-E-R”… And also, if they all end up dead, they would still blame the woman, for dragging them all there!
Never mind that the mental institute is awaiting your arrival from having a breakdown after years and years of mental torture. Can you see my trigger button flashing?!?
Of course. God’s heart is never toward protecting His own, but in restoring “things” and “covenants” that are killing His people. This loving God of ours is in the business of torturing His people and forcing them to live with unredeemed folk who torture them. Yep, that’s God according to them.
So, we all know that God can redeem broken and even abusive marriages. But, that is not dependent on one person. Also, we are not talking about fixing the old, but having a completely “new” marriage, which God can also do. So, where are all those people who have had abusive spouses, who have now been redeemed and the marriage has been made completely “new” — out with the old, in with the new — to give us hope and to help us hold on? Where are they? The unfortunate thing about it, is that DeMoss and her buddy have never met them, you and I have most likely never met more than one or two and that they don’t really exist in plausible numbers, because God is in the business of freeing His people from this sick misconception of Him, not sentencing them to death or insanity here on earth, so that DeMoss and Elliff and all the others can say they were right.
I will end with this, because it is the only “smart” thing that either of them had to say.
What world are they from? A very insulated, self-made fantasy world that they call Chritianity, but is not. It is a world filled with superstition. A world where things will turn out exactly as they are supposed to if we will each one just do our part. It is a world of delusion.
Well stated, Anon!
Thanks Anon, extremely well said! I put all the quotes indented so it was easier to follow.
Thanks Barb! I didn’t know how to do that.
Ordinary readers can’t do indentations and block quotes. Only blog admins and editors can.
I often do it with my own comments, but not often with other people’s. But yours was so good and had so many quotes in it, I wanted to make it easier to follow for our lovely, worn out, PTSD-ed readers!
“So, where are all those people who have had abusive spouses, who have now been redeemed and the marriage has been made completely “new” — out with the old, in with the new — to give us hope and to help us hold on? Where are they? ”
YES! Where are they? This thought has been rolling around in my mind when Christians say “God is in the business of saving marriages” – what? Then why didn’t he save mine? I prayed for 7 years that God would please help me, that he would change my husband’s heart, that he would please help me to have romantic/sexual feelings for this monster because I needed to have sex with him on a regular basis for my survival – and yet the thought of him touching made me cry!
Why didn’t he answer those prayers? Why instead, did he miraculously reach down, pluck me and my children up, and move us to the east coast and give us a new house? and a job that I wasn’t qualified for? and a fun red golf cart with yellow flames painted on it, that I drive my kids around on as we fly through the woods with happiness and no fear?
Why did God deliver us instead of fix my marriage??? I think we know the answer.
LOVE that, Katy.
Love it.
I remember people asking me, “Don’t you believe that God can heal? That God can restore?”
Oh, BOY, do I ever believe it! Because God is healing my childrens’ hearts and mine. He is restoring our souls. He rescued us from the one(s) who was/were destroying our souls. He is MOST DEFINITELY in the business of restoration and redemption!
Exactly!
Why didn’t God heal Israel’s relationship with Pharaoh? Why didn’t He soften Pharaoh’s heart, so that he would have compassion for his covenant partners, Israel? Why didn’t he restore that relationship, so that Israel could continue to live, in peace and prosperity in the land of Goshen, in a loving relationship with their Egyptian neighbors?
Was it because Israel lacked sufficient faith, or because they failed to humble themselved before Pharaoh?
No! It was because God had another plan…one He had already revealed to Abraham hundreds of years earlier.
God’s plan was to deliver Israel from Egypt and to redeem them from their covenant with Pharaoh.
So GOOD, Joe!
I love this Megan! I don’t know how to make people see it from that angle. But, if God’s will is that He always restores, then my 20 some years of praying for that, must just be Him torturing me to see how long I can hold out, huh? No, that is not Him. So, then I doubt…maybe my picture of Jesus is twisted and they are right! I have made my own decisions, but am learning that His decision for me, was that I could have left much sooner. I just didn’t because of fear and because of the well-doers who insisted that even though I had been asking and praying for 20 plus years, God just wanted me to wait on Him and live this way forever, if need be, to show Christ and perseverance to others.
Read this today: Matthew 22:4-7. Jesus tells the parable here of those invited to the wedding banquet. He says that they treated it lightly and went their own way, but the rest seized His servants, treated them spitefully and killed them. Then He goes on to say how He felt about that. Verse 7: “But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers and burned up their city.”
Although this is not talking about marriage specifically, it is speaking of being married to Christ and the wedding we have been invited to, which IS the picture of what marriage here on earth should look like. See how angry Jesus is, when His people are mistreated and murdered! It says that He is furious at what they did to His people! Do we not think He is white hot with anger, the same kind that sets a city on fire, over His own being abused in marriage?!? What is wrong with the Christians, who just cannot get it?!? I feel like I have explained and explained. Perhaps what I really need to do, is just exactly what Christ said to do when you take the Gospel, and they won’t listen. Shake the dust, leave their city, and seal it with a curse!
Yes, where are these marriages that have been healed?? And yes, more and more I am convinced God is in the business of taking me OUT of Egypt and captivity and bringing my kids and I to the promise land
SS – I had that Egypt experience. No one can believe it when I describe how God brought us out of Texas. A place where I had no friends or family. I had nothing but a beat up minivan, 3 babies, and our clothing.
For some reason that I can only call a miracle, my violent husband suddenly threw up his hands, walked away, and left me all of the assets. I drove out of Texas with “all the wealth of Egypt ” tied to my back, and then God brought us to the coast, gave us a house and then the job that I had never earned. I have a freedom that I never ever dreamed of. and PEACE
One thing I have learned in the last 4 years – there is true freedom in Christ. I don’t mean that in the fake way it’s used sometimes – i mean FREEDOM. I am chasing some big dreams now and so far God’s been answering me with “yes” !
So, where are all those people who have had abusive spouses, who have now been redeemed and the marriage has been made completely “new” — out with the old, in with the new — to give us hope and to help us hold on? Where are they?
This is a great question. I’d like to know the answer myself.
There are lots of them. In the movies, in novels – just think of Ebenezer Scrooge!
“God is in the business of saving marriages” – what? Then why didn’t he save mine? I prayed for 7 years that God would please help me, that he would change my husband’s heart
This is something else I’m curious about. How long did you survivors try like this with no results before you knew you had to leave? Contrasted with, how long did it take before you began to see God move once you decided you had to go, and how did He lead you out?
The first survivor I read about was Dani Moss, who tried and prayed for a great many years that God would save her marriage, with no results, until she finally heard, “you can leave.” I forget how many years. I’ll have to go look. I think it was around 20 or so.
BIT – I never had a moment where I felt like God said “you can leave”. Instead, I had an experience where my husband was sitting in a chair, calmly threatening me, speaking all manner of evil, and suddenly his voice went “mute”. I couldn’t hear what he was saying but I could see his lips still moving.
And I had this clear-as-a-bell thought in my head: “He’s leaving you now. Will you rely on Me?”
and I said (in my mind, in despair) “On Whom else can I rely?”
and then just like that, the sound button was back on, I could hear all of my husband’s insults, etc.
That was my experience. It was more like a warning of what was going to happen, like preparation. And it all came to pass very quickly after that. It was very scary, but I tried to remember that God told me to rely on Him.
I did have that “you can leave” experience. After becoming a Christian, I prayed for six more years and sought the help of the church for four? before I finally started to realize things weren’t going to change. I was praying angrily and desperately to God as my husband was beating on my son again, asking why He wasn’t fulfilling His “promises” to me since I was trying to hard to be submissive, to look at my own sin (there was much of that), and to have faith that he would heal my family. In the middle of me pleading with Him to change things, a thought came from left field, clear enough to almost be audible: “you can leave.” Exactly those words. I sat up straight (I had my face on the floor), shaken by the thought and asked, “how could I leave with eight children, no money, and nowhere to go?” And then I dismissed it altogether until Child Services showed up at my door and began to connect me with people who helped me to leave the next year (this past year).
God is using Children’s Services and a shelter for abused women to help me through it. The church has only confused things for me.
Katy, That was great!!
My comment ended up in a weird spot. I’m referring to your post about riding through the woods with your kids on your really cool golf cart, with no fear. So, so fun!
Nancy Leigh DeMoss isn’t even married.
I really truly want to hear a testimony from a women who suffered this level of abuse and her husband was miraculously changed into a loving husband, and she has no fear any longer and enjoys being with him. I’ve never met a couple like that.
There has to be a reason for that. If God were truly in the business of saving marriage covenants (rather than people), it stands to reason that there would be couples everywhere with this history of domestic violence that are happy and healthy now. It’s almost as if God has different priorities….
Yes! Exactly that! Thank you for putting that into words.
This business of only physical trauma being important is quite a silly line to draw for people whose main priority is dealing with non-physical well being.
I mean, if we only want to count physical trials as “real” then honestly we can throw out the take home points from just about every sermon I’ve ever heard.
excellent point. Suffering and trials aren’t just cancer and car accidents. Nor are those the most important injuries, since God is concerned with our hearts and minds.
Katy – Your writing is excellent and I am awed by your story! And I feel like mine was so similar! The only difference is that we never saw our things again but that was OK. The kids and I recognize that our freedom trumps our belongings, although we did allow ourselves to grieve over lost books, photographs, toys, etc. God is in the process of replacing all of that now, anyway. But, it was the same for me — We were in Europe and a friend IN Europe paid to fly the kids and me back to the states. But, I found no support from what little family I had left here and no friends (for a while). I went to a few churches for help and they seemed to believe it was the best goal to bring my (then) husband out here to “get me”. I felt like the kids and I ran for a good year until God settled us in. Our first year was hard. And then the six months after the first year were hard. And then things got better. It is hard for me to not just throw out church. I think the kids and I were pretty destitute when I look back. And, still, the focus was on “saving the marriage”. And it seemed as though the fact that we had nothing was used against us (“If you would go back to your husband, you would have everything you need”). It was like our destitution was a tool of manipulation.
But, just this morning, I read in Philippians that Paul, too, was disappointed in many churches (Phil.4:15-17). He seemed to have actively trained his mind, though, to focus on the one church that DID help him. I’m working on that, too, today . . . Still have not made it back to church but trying to remain positive.
“If you would go back to your husband, you would have everything you need”
Isn’t it interesting that I can’t think of either Paul or Jesus saying anything that remotely sounds like this . . .
Amen, Jeff S!!
Double that Amen!
Thank you, Megan, for sharing that. What a great piece of advice! I am encouraged just by reading this and can see how even in these situations where the church fails, God is working to bring about wisdom and strength in those who are trusting in Him. I thank Him for the strength He is working in you. I thank Him that He stands with the oppressed and weeps with the mourners and will make all things right. God bless you and Katy, and both of your families.
Big hugs, Desley!
At this point, the thing that gets me isn’t so much what these people say, because it holds no power over me, but that it takes away credibility from the Gospel. I mean, unbelievers KNOW this is garbage when they hear it. Why would anyone ever listen to what they have to say on any topic after hearing this?
So true. The feminist practitioners (both men and women) who work in domestic abuse are strongly against Christianity because they know how much it damages victims of abuse. They hear the stories all the time from their clients. It’s the same with the police and many lawyers and judges (the ones who aren’t abusers themselves). In my networking with secular DV practitioners, the wall of suspicion I felt as soon as I mentioned I was a Christian was…. palpable, and so high that it seemed un-scalable. Only when I was given an opportunity to present a talk to them about what I do, and said how I deplore the way churches often side with perpetrators, did they drop that wall. It was amazing. Suddenly I was accepted. I have even been labelled as a feminist by people in this network – and they meant that as a compliment (LOL!).
The church is napalming the field of unbelievers with the ridiculous and horrendously unjust way it is treating victims of domestic abuse. How can the church go out and win souls when it’s shown itself to be a crack air-force that regularly drops bombs on innocent civilians and flies back to its safe base, remote from the carnage it has caused?
Megan – I totally relate. I was prepared to leave everything behind, as our lives were the only things that mattered. And we have had to “rebuild” a life of material stuff but as you say – that’s not the really important part. And before I got this job we were definitely poor and we were on some public assistance (free school lunch etc). However – that is not an indication that you are outside of God’s will. He provides for us in many different ways.
Katy – God owns all the money in the world, even the money given to people in need by the State or Government. It is all His and He does with it as He pleases! It pleased Him to give it to you! The earth is the Lord’s and all that is in it!
DeMoss, Elliff, Piper, Baucham….Olympus, Zeus, Aphrodite… I have been studying Adventism of late and reading the writings of Ellen G. White, alleged prophetess. Not! I see a very troubling correspondence between the style and writings of DeMoss and Elliff and others of this same genre. It is a spirit or attitude of what I call “intrusion.” Ellen G. White intruded into people’s personal and private lives. Even into their thinking. I see her as a classic peeping-Tom sticking her nose into other people’s private lives and craving to exert control. When people like DeMoss write the books she writes and says the things she says, they do so with an entitlement to intrusion. They will tell you what to eat, what to wear, where to go, where not to go, how to speak to your spouse….and they are not at all shy about really reaming you out if they see you straying. The bottom line here is that DeMoss, Elliff, Piper and so many others need to be told to just get lost and get their noses out of peoples’ lives. No one has authority to dictate as they try to do. God does. His Word binds my conscience. But not this false pantheon of little gods. There is something very, very wrong with anyone who intrudes in this manner. They don’t think they even have to knock. They just walk right in. They are trespassers. Send them away!
You nailed it, Jeff C. Intrusion. Entitlement and intrusion. And ALL to exert control. Well-spoken.
LIKE!!!
They will tell you what to eat, what to wear, where to go, where not to go
We are told specifically to avoid those who tell us to abstain from certain foods in both 1 Timothy 4 and Colossians 2. Also, we are specifically told we are free in regard especially to foods in Romans 14 and somewhere else I can’t recall off the top of my head. Corinthians somewhere I think. What in the world are they doing telling people what to eat?! Or what to wear for that matter. They cannot make moral issues out of things we are free in.
As a nurse who has worked in the psych side of medicine at times, I remember that word “intrusiveness” being a fairly frequent descriptor in the case notes of certain clients. Being overly intrusive was one of the things that indicated the client’s mental disorder, and the degree they were expressing their intrusive trait indicated how bad or less bad their disorder was at any given time.
I’m not inferring any psych diagnosis for the teachers and false prophets that have been mentioned in this thread, I am simply saying that when I hear the word ‘intrusive’ I remember my time in psych nursing.
I think some of them are mentals. I don’t necessarily mean any of the contemporary ones we have named here, but take Ellen White for instance. She spewed out reams and reams of written material. She claimed visions and had an angelic “visitor” regularly speaking to her. She announced that God spoke to and through her and people better obey her. Now, I gotta say, that sounds like, well…. let’s give it the 3 options C.S. Lewis gave in regard to Christ. Someone who claims these things either has to be telling the truth, a lunatic, or something worse. Ellen White was not telling the truth. Her failed prophecies prove that. Intrusion is indeed a huge warning sign that something is very wrong with someone.
And hey, pretty cool! I used a psych word and didn’t even know it.
I find that VERY interesting, Barb.
Speaking of intrusive; I have spoken about my former pastor who really intruded into my life in many ways- one thing that occured was when i made the statement that it was my husband’s job to tell me if I was displeasing to him in some way- not the pastor’s. To which the pastor shook his head and said “no”. I was speechless. Of course, so was my STBE-who never has anything to say.
As is true so often it seems, the Lord of the Rings comes to our rescue with some great quotes for such as these. Here are a few from Gandalf:
“Be silent. Keep your forked tongue behind your teeth. I did not pass through fire and death to bandy crooked words with a witless worm.”
“You cannot pass! I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the Flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, Flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow. You shall not pass!”
“Tell me, friend, when did Saruman the Wise abandon reason for madness?”
Jeff I did a lot of reading on Mormonism in the past, especially the polygamists, and they have scary similarities to these teachings. If you look up the book “Escape” by Carolyn Jessop on Amazon, it came out in 2008 and it is an astounding peek into that world…that poor woman escaped incredible abuse with 8 children. it has some pretty awful similarities to these Christian leaders on the subject of marriage. (maybe it’s just the strong patriarchy)
The patriarchy contributes for sure – that is where the power lies. But there also seems to be an attitude in people (in many cases, women) who ally themselves with the thing – an attitude of, hey! A new term: Matriarchy! These matriarchs also seem to get their joy from intruding and controlling. I would not be at all surprised if people like Ellen White were abusers themselves, craving power and control.
The matriarchs of patriarchy?
Yes! Matriarchy. -Archyness is bad either way
Haha, BIT!
We must be archinessless!
Thank you for sharing this, Katy. I was leery of DeMoss but now even more so. As another commenter pointed out, DeMoss is not married but is very free to dispense authoritative advice on marriage and motherhood.
I have not read her book “Lies Women Believe” but according to a review, she believes that Satan uses women to tear down their husbands because Eve was deceived. If you believe this logic, the woman is automatically suspect if not outright assumed to be the one at fault. If anyone has read the book and I have it wrong, please correct me. But if this is true, it makes perfect sense that she would give such advice.
IMO, no good has come from these knee-jerk reactions in the gender wars. In some minds, feminism is the ultimate evil to the family and the church so you combat it by making sure the woman stays in her place. But they are only making matters worse by imposing moralistic behavior to combat sin. Only the gospel can do that.
Keeping Anonymous – you are very right. Your comment reminded me of another book I read last month “The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert” – a testimony from a former feminist/Post Modern professor. For some reason her story also brought me a lot of hope – because it’s not about “going to war” with moralistic rules. so true.
Nancy Leigh DeMoss…of the “True Woman Manifesto” fame. Ugh and double ugh.
(If you don’t agree, I guess you are a false woman.)
I found it very interesting that currently on DeMoss’ “Revive Our Hearts” site she has a “thank you” post for those who are helping her meet her 1.5 million “year end need”. ?? WOW.
She is a wealthy heiress. Her dad, of course, being Arthur S DeMoss. Does she really need the donations of those less fortunate than she to meet a year end “need”?
Someone’s home–her mom, or her own, is here as of 2009:
http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/nancy-demoss-house/
No credibility with me.
I continue to be amazed at the ignorance of church leaders who do not recognize that abuse is rampant in our society and our churches! I experienced so much of what is shared here – trust God to heal your marriage, etc. As others have shared in their comments, since I have been free from the abuse, I have seen healing in my children, in myself and God’s blessings on our lives. I prayed for so many years to have a god honoring marriage, but it didn’t happen.
Kay- The Bible is very plain. Evil exists. In fact, there is an entire kingdom of evil with its own evil prince who untiringly roams about seeking to devour. He has his emissaries whom he sends, disguised as sons of righteousness. He has his false prophets dressed as sheep. We are told this. Over and over again we are told it. But you know what? The average professing Christian, and even many pastors and church leaders, really don’t believe it. Oh they talk about it and give it lip service, but when they are actually confronted with it they practice willful naivete. There ARE evil people. Many of them. They are vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, as the Bible says. It is willful disobedience and unbelief to go around declaring that God is going to “redeem” everyone and every marriage. What He does do is redeem His people and set them free from tyrrany and oppression. Honestly, I think that there are people who claim to be Christians who would insist that the Devil himself is going to be redeemed one day.
Ummm… I believe LDS teaches exactly that, don’t they?
Ummm… I believe LDS teaches exactly that, don’t they?
Ack! Really?
The LDS also believe that their marriages continue in heaven – they are eternal.
So even in death, there is no escape.
So, where does this theology fit into all of this. Total depravity. I am being told, that because we are all sinners, his sin is no worse than anything I have ever done. They say, “well, he isn’t some kind of monster or something! I mean, he can be redeemed, just like you can, and because you are redeemed, it is sinful for you not to show him the way!”, even though I have been loving and forgiving and doing all I could to lead him to God for over 20 years. Books, tapes, seminars, conferences, all of it — and to no avail. So, what about this – total depravity – is it an excuse or enabler to an abuser?
This is a terribly common excuse that is used against abuse victims. Total depravity simply means that every human being, due to Adam’s fall, is born into this world with no “island of goodness” in them. That is to say, every part of man is fallen in sin – mind, spirit, emotions, body. No part escapes. This does NOT mean that everyone is as bad as they possibly could be in practice. Total depravity is radical depravity. Radical means “root.” Sin has affected us at the root of our being. But remember that Jesus said it would be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrah than for the cities in His day on the day of judgment. The Bible plainly says that some people are more wicked than others. That some sin is more evil than other sin. The reformed confessions of faith teach this to be the case. So this whole nonsense about “we are all sinners and just as bad as anyone else and so we have to have compassion and we must forgive the abuser….” is totally wrong. The abuser, hardened in his non-conscience, pretending to be a fine Christian, craving power and control – IS a worse and more evil sinner than his victim. Therefore he IS to be treated differently, and it is gross naivety and foolishness to treat him as if he is no different than everyone else. Many abusers are just plain sociopaths with no conscience.
Pastor Jeff – can I cut and copy your answer here and send it to someone?
Cut and paste away! If they get mad though, tell them you forgot my name:)
It is interesting to me how folks like these can make blanket statements (You must reconcile your marriage always at all costs) while not making blanket statements (Every situation is different) but yet the enemy’s tactics and patterns are actually quite recognizable and consistent.
Laurie spot on. Such inconsistencies. And it’s tragic that these blanket statements are such cliches that people don’t even examine them. Then take home the pretty posy of cliches without ever wondering whether it might contain inconsistencies, let alone a serpent hiding among the pretty flowers.
Come to think of it, I recall in Beth Moore’s “Believing God” series that she also claimed to know for sure that “God is for your marriage.” It made sense at the time…that when we pray God’s will we can expect HIm to deliver, and thus pray it in faith. The example she gave of the woman commentor on her blog who was ready to pack her bags and leave her husband but “decided instead to believe God” – I wonder, did anyone from Lifeway ever correspond with this woman to get the details of her marriage problems? If they did, they didn’t elaborate to the rest of us. And yet it is clear that believing God to save our marriages WHILE WE UNPACK OUR BAGS AND WAIT IT OUT is what a person of faith does.
It IS amazing how we take these things for granted without examining them. Where DOES God say in the Bible that He is for every single marriage, regardless of the circumstances? I have never read it.
You’re quite right, Desley. The Bible doesn’t say anywhere that God is *for* every single marriage regardless of the circumstances.
I heard a story only recently of a woman who is married to a pastor who I’m betting is an abuser (can’t tell you the background, but there are plenty of signs). She packed her bags once to leave him but then changed her mind, being snagged by exactly that thought: “I should believe God, I should hang in and believe that God will change my husband.”
It’s pernicious mis-teaching; it can literally be lethal. And it’s epidemic in the church.
“I heard a story only recently of a woman who is married to a pastor who I’m betting is an abuser (can’t tell you the background, but there are plenty of signs). She packed her bags once to leave him but then changed her mind, being snagged by exactly that thought: “I should believe God, I should hang in and believe that God will change my husband.”
If only..if only these people would be more responsible in what they are teaching. I realize not all of them mean to come across like this, but these same people also don’t feel the need to take extra precautions to avoid these misunderstandings either.
So sad.
“And yet it is clear that believing God to save our marriages WHILE WE UNPACK OUR BAGS AND WAIT IT OUT is what a person of faith does.”
oh, this is so interesting to me, because there was a time when I would have taken this for granted as well. My guess, is that the marital problems referred to by Beth Moore likely did not include abuse. But there is no way of knowing because we can’t find any of these elusive domestic violence survivors who stuck it out and have happy redeemed marriages now.
And you are right – where ARE they? Surely after all these years of teaching this crap there ought to be enough out there to defend the teachings.
…anybody??
Desley, I’m frightened of opening up a can of worms here, but I’ll make a few remarks. (knowing me, that could run to several paragraphs!)
I have come across marriage rescuing type ministries that work with both the husband and the wife and that claim a fair degree of success with domestic abuse cases. But so far, the individuals who I’ve heard from who have gone to those ministries have not convinced me that there has been real and lasting change in the abusive spouse. Somehow, the testimonies seem too good to be true, too ‘gushy’, too much like they all come from the same mould and all the abusers learned the same script to testify about their reformation.
I have read one story which seems genuine: Karen and Bruce McAndless-Davis tell their story in their own words.
Bruce and Karen now work together in domestic abuse ministry: Karen is a counsellor, and she and Bruce together run workshops. But a quick glance at the articles on their website will show you that they are not pushing the line that every abusive marriage can be saved.
There is also a ministry called Changing Men Changing Lives, which is run by Ty and Barb Schroyer. They are experienced professionals in the Duluth model of Mens’ Behaviour Change Programs and Victim Support Programs for domestic violence/abuse. The Changing Men Changing Lives program is a version of the Duluth men’s program that the Schroyers have developed for abusers who profess Christianity. I am not aware of how successful they are in getting abusers to change, but they have a video on their site which shows at least one man who appears to have reformed.
The secular men’s behaviour change programs say they are finding that some abusers do change at least to some degree or for some period of time, but those who do change tend to be the abusers who are on the milder end of the spectrum of abuse. The MIWs (monsters in wedlock – thanks Memphis for that great acronym) don’t seem to change no matter how much effort is put in to them. (Remember, I’m not an expert; I’m only passing on what I’ve gleaned by going to conferences and reading a lot.)
What all this boils down to is that while there may be the odd story of real reformation, we aren’t hearing masses of survivors reporting that their marriages were completely transformed from being abusive to being respectful, loving and mutually enriching.
Thanks for your reponse, Barbara. Right off the bat I can see some profound differences between the usual counsel to victims and what it being put forth here. I can see how their program might be effective in some rare cases. For one, Bruce is listing the ways he abused Karen in great detail. He is taking full responsiblity without minimizing, rationalizing, or blame-shifting. Second, the approach here seems to recognize that the abuser and the abused have completely different needs that should be addressed. Third, this program focuses in on the underlying beliefs and not simply external behaviours. As you know so well, this is definitely NOT the same approach that is taken by the vast majority of churches. The church allies with the abuser in minimzing his verbal/emotional/psychologlcal/economic abuse, for goodness sake. How in the world does an abuser change when the very myths (or LIES) that are allowing him to continue in his abuse are being reinforced by the very people who are claiming to help? How does he change when his wife continues to tolerate his mistreatment of her because the church is keeping her in the dark?
If the church would even adopt the model put forth here, we might (just might) see some progress with the milder abusers and be able to salvage a very small percentage of marriages – even if they are the exception to the rule. But the church isn’t even doing that much.
I think Katy is on to something by asking them to provide examples of success. If they cannot provide some real, concrete examples of success in their approaches and they nonetheless continue to use a proven flawed system, this is inexcusable. No. This is detestable. It is a sad, sad place we have reached when the standards of the world are higher than the standards of the church.
But now I have to go and take a breather.
“Somehow, the testimonies seem too good to be true, too ‘gushy’, too much like they all come from the same mould and all the abusers learned the same script to testify about their reformation.”
An astute observation, Barbara.
When people are convinced that in order to save their marriage they must believe deeper, worker harder, and pray more fervently, that “believe deeper” part translates to “act like everything is going great whether it is or not.”
Desley, my therapist used to work with domestic abusers- as in, the kind who had to be court ordered to see him. What he tells me is that he could count the number of men who “reformed” on one hand, they were the milder cases, he’s not sure years afterward if it “took” for good, and that those who claimed Christianity were the worst to work with because all they did was sit there and quote scripture to justify their actions (which he had really nothing to counter with because he doesn’t really understand Christianity well enough to point out where they were mis-applying scripture).
He also told me that even with the handful of success stories he would not recommend the wife returning for fear of her safety.
The only caveat to all of this is that the sample is skewed because all of these men were in therapy at a court order, so none of them were there voluntarily. But the point is, from his perspective even the success stories were hard to really count as successful.
“oh, this is so interesting to me, because there was a time when I would have taken this for granted as well”
Same here, Katy. It was such a part of the culture in which I was raised, that I never even thought to question whether it was truly a biblical perspective.
I wonder, now, whether that part of our cultural belief system doesn’t originate more from pagan religions proliferated thru fairy tales and Disney movies…
I think the whole “God is for your marriage” thing gets into a confusion about the “will” of God.
Here’s a good article by Sproul on that subject:
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/wills_sproul.html
I think you could argue that within God’s “will of disposition” he does not want any marriage to end. In the same way, God does not want babies to starve to death or women to be raped.
However, just because God does not want these things doesn’t mean they don’t happen. If the marriage was God’s “sovereign, decretive will” not to end, then he would fix it so it didn’t have to (which means fixing the abuser), but we are not promised anywhere in scripture that it is God’s sovereign, decretive will that all marriages will be saved.
Wow. Thanks, Jeff. That was hugely helpful.
Katy, I think you are probably right in that the woman Beth Moore referred to was not being abused (I hope). But I guess it bothers me because the specifics of her situation were not clarified and I find that reckless. It may be that I am overly sensitive to these messages now, but you don’t typically find teachers making distinctions between how one would handle a troubled marriage and how one would handle an marriage marked by abuse. There were likely several abused women who walked away from that particular message believing that staying in the marriage is the right thing for them to do too. Too many blanket statements with no regard for who might be listening, I think. DV is enough of a problem that people probably should clarify these things when broaching the subject of marital problems. I hope I am making sense.
Yes, it is reckless, but I would say it is worse than reckless. It’s professional negligence and malpractice.
If there is a contract involved, it might be called misfeasance.
I am keeping this info on hand.Good to know.
Good article! Thanks, Jeff!
We may want to save our marriage, and God may want to save our marriage, but that pesky abusive husband thinks everything is just fine.
and he isn’t getting much reason to question that from the church either, is he?
Got that straight, Desley! My former church thinks my husband is just fine and I’m the crazy one.
Months after leaving my husband, I left my church. A few months later I get an email from one of the elders (who, by the way, never said a word to me about my situation while I was still at church) basically telling me what I needed to do to reconcile my marriage- even tho he admitted he didn’t know that much about my situation. Of course he mentioned the evil of Eve wanting to control her husband,etc…….
I ignored it.
Pampla — that is so horrid! Why would that man presume to stick his nose in where he has no knowledge, and instruct you on things he doesn’t understand? And by email! (he was smart to do it by email – less messy for him, so he can just judge you from on high without the messiness of dealing with an actual person or having to hear any unseemly details in response)
I hate to say it but I don’t feel any urge to defend the church, and if it withers up and dwindles down to having to meet in tents, then maybe that would be the best thing.
Katy, just another example of someone with just enough knowledge to be dangerous.
And throw in a pinch of arrogance to the mixture. Ignorance + Arrogance = ???? Trouble?
I fully agree that people without experience should not give advice. I was given the book “Lies Women Believe” by a church member. It was about 7 years ago, when I really started talking to my “friends” at church about what my husband was putting us through and that I no longer could take it. So they gave me that book. I never really read it, just skimmed thru it here and there but got the feeling that I should not read the book. Now I am glad I did not. I was living with an abusive husband since 2000. I got to a point that I had to write down what was happening and have actual records of what was going on. I always thought that I could make it, it was just me and I was the one that had to change. But my kids starting telling me that they did not think it was wise for us to live with this mean person anymore. And what followed was amazing. In June of 2012 i heard “it is time to leave”. I had seen an attorney about filing for divorce in June and he told me that I had to leave the house in order for him to serve my husband papers. All scared not knowing how I was going to pull this off, I was terrified. I asked the Lord to please help me through this. I know it was time and HE was telling me to leave. June 25, my husband and I had a fight on the phone about money and paying bills. I got home before he did so I started making supper. He walked in and started screaming at me. We ended up with a yelling match in the bedroom as I just had enough and could take it no more. He grabbed his wallet and took out some cash, grabbed me by the back of the head and started shoving the money into my mouth saying ” I hope this tastes good!”. I had the spaghetti spoon in my hand and started hitting him on the face to try and get him off of me as I was pinned to the bed him leaning on top of me. I got him off and grabbed my phone and called 911. Long story short he cut my lip in the process and that is what finally got him hauled off to jail after the 3rd 911 phone call in 3 months. I asked the cops when will he get out of jail and they said it could be as early as in the morning. I said,” well he will just come back here!” and the cop indirectly told me that I should not be here when he got out of jail. That weekend prior, I had an aquantance tell me that they were leaving town as their job had finished they were working on, and had another week left on their furnished apartment and wondered if I knew someone who needed it. I called them up and moved into the apartment that evening. Was able to stay there for the week till we were able to move into an unfurnished house lent to us for 2 months free of charge. We went and got our beds from the house before he got out of jail. While in jail, I was able to serve him with the intentions of divorce papers, an order of protection, and the state served him papers on Criminal Domestic Violence. He stayed in jail for 3 days till his dad bailed him out. He went to stay with his parents and have been there ever since. We were able to move back into our home on Labor day weekend, and he was told that he was not allowed to come close to our home at all. The sheriff had already escorted him to our home to get his things out while we were at a safe house. My family and friends have really taken care of us in many ways and I see it as God taking care of us. The Church is not the only one that has to take care of us. God speaks thru individuals to help each other out. Since then every door has opened to proceed with my separation and in 6 more months i am filing for divorce. As he speaks to my friends to get to me indirectly, I see that he has not changed and that his intentions are all wrong. He told one friend that the only way he will get me back is for him to get a job. He tells my mom to tell me to tell my attorney to put a stop to the order of protection and to realize I am wrong and to let him back home. She said NO! The kids tell me that he keeps telling them to tell me to let him back home, and their answer is NO-WAY! I was able to give my kids the best Christmas in 14 years, all with him not being here. We are so much happier and the kids are adjusting very well. A year ago I was struggling trying to make it with food stamps, and a husband that refused to work. I have not gone a day without being able to pay my bills or buy food, and I actually have money left over after each paycheck. The Lord does take care of us and opens doors and/or windows where He wants us to go.
But it all comes down to experience. Until a pastor’s kids go through an abusive relationship, they will never understand what we go through or what it is all about.
What, I wonder, was going through their minds when they gave you that pathetic excuse for a book?!? But what wise children you have! Wisdom revealed to babes, for realz. I am so happy for you that you are free!
God bless you!!
Tersia, that’s a great story! Hugs to you, and your cool kids!
You were so ‘lucky’ he physically assaulted you and you had the split lip and blood to prove it so the police charged him. And so you then could get the protection order. Many victims tell me that their state laws don’t provide protection orders unless there is evidence of physical violence. Uugh. Here in Oz, in my state, we can get protection orders for all sorts of domestic abuse: financial, social, psychological/emotional, stalking, getting other people to abuse on the perpetrator’s behalf… anything that is a pattern of conduct that causes the victim to live in fear.
God bless you Tersia, yes God uses individuals to help us, not just church leadership, and yes he opens the doors in the way He wants us to go! THANK GOD you never read Nancy’s book, and I promise you the women who gave it to you probably thought you needed to work on your “gentle spirit” and tattling on your husband’s abuse was not showing him proper “reverence”. These people are crazy, but you and your kids are going to be fine!
Amen!
Why is it that so many people (women and men) in the church, assume that having a meek and quiet spirit means having a mostly closed mouth and a whispery voice? There is no room in the church for a woman like me: assertive, opinionated (of course only in a good way)- studied in the Scripture- able and willing to teach (but no takers).
Me too, Pamplamouse.
What an encouraging story, Tersia! Sounds like you and your kids are doing great!
Thanks for sharing!
I hate to say this, but it is probably good that you have the evidence and that you had to call 911 those times, because I have been asked several times, “Well, have you ever HAD to call the police?”, instead of, “SHOULD you have ever called the police?”, and because my answer is, “no I have never actually called the police, but my children almost did”, they don’t think the abuse was all that serious. At least not serious enough to leave the marriage.
I just sent a message to the Revive Our Hearts website using their web-email form, telling them the link to this post and suggesting they read it.
Good work, Barb. This is the only way that people will have their eyes opened or at least consider opening their eyes! They think they know the Gospel so well, but they are missing some very important aspects and need to own up to it. Thanks for doing this.
I also submitted a comment on the True Woman blog, at a post they wrote in 2010 about Holly Eliff. All I said in my comment was “There is a post about Holly Eliff and Nancy Leigh Demoss at the blog A Cry For Justice.” – and I gave the link to this post here at ACFJ.
I’m pleased to see they have published my comment. You can see the post here http://www.truewoman.com/?id=1484 and scroll down to find my comment.
To add another thing. My former ( I almost typed “old women’s group-but that made it sound like my group was just old women!LOL!) women’s group studied the book “Lies Women Believe” and it was very distressing to me. I didn’t even realize I was abused at that point-but I knew something was very wrong and this woman -who wasn’t married was trying to tell me it was all my fault. I at least knew that wasn’t true. The pastor’s wife, who led it, would give examples of her sins against her husband as cautionary tales to the rest of us (correcting her husband’s grammar, trying to give him directions while driving and then crying when he reprimanded her (she claimed that was her being manipulative or something nonsensical like that)- these were examples supposedly of the what a gentle and quiet spirit is NOT. ???????? I knew there was no way in Hades I could EVER live it up to this standard- and I would question why God made me the way the He did, if I was supposed to be like this.
I hope that pastor’s wife wakes up one day. In some ways you have to feel sorry for her. And yet, she is a danger to others because she is teaching that stuff.
My study group (that was using Lies Women Believe) had the exact same dynamic. The leader of the group described how she was being rebellious against her husband by getting addicted to “couponing” – how it was insulting him and his ability to provide. Lord have mercy, I don’t know how I made it through that particular study. They were sweet women, truly, but I could never fit in.
That was the same pastor that spiritually abused me, so I’m pretty sure she is living with an abusive man-she has given herself no other choice but to blame herself.
Katy- I’m with you! I never fit in with these church ladies either. If I find someone more like me, we end up huddling together “outside the camp”. I have basically had it with church as well.
Fully understood, Pampla. I feel the same way. But what I have to remind myself of is that there is the “church” and then there is the “church.” I bet that you have not had it with the true church, the real body of Christ. The trick is for us to find it! Many times that “church” as defined as a building with a pastor that meets in that place…. is not a church at all. And of course, even the very best visible churches in this present world contain a mixture of true Christians and false ones. The challenge is to find one where the genuine believers are in charge!
Jeff C . . . I have recently grown into a better understanding of what you are saying about the Church vs the church (lowercase “c”). It was a great comfort to me to see Paul’s disappointment in, not just one, but many churches. Something he would never forget. And then, to see him rejoice in the ONE CHURCH that actually helped him during the time of hardship he describes. Here are the verses:
“You Philippians well know, and you can be sure I’ll never forget it, that when I first left Macedonia province, venturing out with the Message, not one church helped out in the give-and-take of this work except you. You were the only one.” Phil. 4:15-17 The Message
Lately, I have been trying to train my mind to focus on “my Philippian Church” — comprised of about 15 people scattered all over the globe (no two attend the same venue!). I am determined, now, to be grateful for these folk (all ya’ll included) and then train myself to better recognize wolves. I think, by doing these two things and by praying, God will help me to be able to attend church again. It will be different this time. I am so glad for the break.
Meg, you’ve just given us another phrase for our Glossary … “Philippian church” … the people on this blog are my Philippian church, for sure.
So couponing is labelled “rebellious” but porn is considered to be “every man’s battle.” Doesn’t it seem like they blow up a woman’s sin to gigantic proportions while minimizing a man’s sin?
There’s room for satire here:
Couponing: Every Woman’s Battle.
Who wants to write that skit for performance at the next church camp?
That made me laugh out loud, Barb.
Pampla, I have given up on the church lady bible studies, but I do still attend my church just because I feel like if there is someone there who needs help – I should be there! Just in case God would use me to encourage someone else. It’s really hard to find a body of believers that you can be free in, to be who God made you to be, where the fellowship is honest. But I keep hoping. Although I try not to “challenge” my church leadership in a way that would brand me a problem (har har), I do stand up for things that I know are right. I am not afraid to go against them (as humbly as possible
That’s for nancy ) on the stuff that matters.
There are always plenty of professing Christians who try to lay human traditions on us and try to tell us that these traditions are Scripture. That is what DeMoss and others are doing. God’s instruction to us:
(Col 2:8-10 ESV) 8 ¶ See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.
Okay who said that porn is “every man’s battle”? I saw that in a previous thread. Is this just a common refrain among pastors or did somebody like Piper say that? Makes a woman never want to get married again when she hears that every man on the planet secretly watches porn.
re: couponing – Honestly. I think sometimes they pick these really minor teeny tiny things to nitpick because they are afraid to talk about anything more serious or real.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSh5eo14560
It is the title of a best-selling book and it has a workbook and workshops and so forth.
oh wow. ! I don’t know what to think of that. Every Christian man has this struggle?
More truthfully stated- EVERY Christian, man or woman, has their struggle with temptation and sin. That is what Galatians 5 is all about. And all of us are enabled to do this battle and put sin to death by the Spirit. BY the Spirit! Not by moralism, but by the Spirit of Christ in us.
It should be noted that not every man struggles with porn, and I don’t think the book makes that claim (correct me if I am wrong). I’d say it’s pretty accurate that most men do struggle with sexual thoughts to one degree or another (and my guess is at least some women struggle with this also?), which I believe is the main point of the book.
I can tell you my experience in men’s study groups is that porn is not taken lightly, but in some ways the drastic reaction by some men toward the “sin” of admiring a beautiful woman makes it almost equivalent to porn, and by implication reduces the serious nature of porn. I can see how this would sometimes validate porn users that their sin is just a natural struggle.
But for my money, while I’m not always sure where the line of what constitutes “lust” is, I can tell you there is a HUGE difference between the attraction of a pretty woman on a billboard and the idea of watching a video of people publicy displaying acts of intimacy in a way intended to stimulate.
So I guess in trying to say, take heart that not every man wants to bring porn into the home; however, every man struggles with the flesh and that includes sexual temptation to along with the rest.
“I can tell you there is a HUGE difference between the attraction of a pretty woman on a billboard and the idea of watching a video of people publicy displaying acts of intimacy in a way intended to stimulate.”
I think it is actually a myth that pornography is simply “displaying acts of intimacy in a way intended to stimulate.” In the large majority of porn, there are no acts of intimacy at all; there are abusive acts, denigrating acts (like beating women and flushing their heads in toilets), there is gang rape, and a whole onslaught of demoralzing women in the most humiliating and tortorous ways. Most times the woman herself is depicted as rejecting the abuse and rape until she finally succumbs and “realizes” she actually is finding pleasure in being mistreated.
IMO, it is probably the myths cloaking the reality of porn that make it so appealing. But when you dig into it a little deeper, and when you realize how it ties into the global sex msrket (including the sex trafficking of women and children), what you find is wholly disturbing – and maybe even enough to repel some men from consuming it.
Pornography sends men the wrong messages about women (that they exist for male pleasure and are inferior) and then burns it into the subconscious with the pleasure-producing endorphins. Even men who begin in soft porn most times regress into the more common hard-core stuff. In some cases now, just to give their films more shock value, they are taping actual rapes of porn actresses, where they are brutally beaten and used in abnormal and dehumanizing ways. This is why porn actresses must get through the shoots with drugs and alcohol.There are no longer any boundaries or safety for the people in the porn industry (who would believe them? Who would care?). And sadly, as I stated in the other post, these people are in pain and usually start porn when they are lured into it as vulnerable teens, after suffering childhood abuse that makes them think they are inherently sexual and worthless. Many women in porn are also coerced into it by boyfriends and husbands (just like prostitution).
The whole industry makes me sick.
I guess for me, I am furious any time someone calls pornography “every man’s battle” because I was coerced into prostitution as a teen and then when I was pregnant with my first child I was raped by his father after he watched porn. Yes, most people (men and women) struggle with sexual thoughts. But that is quite different than crossing a line and using real people, and watching real people be abused and humiliated for your own pleasure.
There is a video on YouTube describing some of the conditions on set in a California workplace. It highlights just one of women who are abused on set. Shelly Lubben (former porn actress turned Christian) is appealing to have the porn industry shut down until it meets the current health and safety laws. If you do go to find it, please be advised that it is very graphic and disturbing.
Desley,
Thank you for the correction and excellent information regarding the realities of porn. I must admit ignorance to what really goes on in actual porn, as the thought of it sickens me too much to have ever watched any. I knew my original statement fell short, but it’s hard for me to describe given my non experience.
All of this strengthens my point that porn is NOT “every man’s battle” and that the battle of striving for sexual purity in thought is not the same as striving to not use porn.
Hi again Jeff. I am sorry if I came across confrontational at all. Unfortnunately I am still learning how to channel my anger (even if it is healthy) and express it in healthy and productive ways. I didn’t get the impression at all that you were minimizing or justifying the use of porn; I thought it would be good to clarify, that’s all. And I think you’re last distinction is a good one.
I am taken by the way you carry yourself on this blog. All of you. Thank you for being such a great example of humility.
Desley . . . I cannot imagine all you have been through. We all understand triggers. I admire your desire to be healthy and move forward. You are a Beloved daughter of God. Hugs.
Desley, no you did not come across as confrontational. I was thankful for you to describe what I could not (and am thankful not to be able to).
It DOES strengthen your point, Jeff S. I kinda’ smiled when I saw your post because I could tell that you did not know the extent and depth of the violence porn portrays (which encourages me very much). Knowing you, I think you would be absolutely repulsed. I accidentally glimpsed a bit of soft-porn when I was in my early 20′s. I was at a friend’s house and I accidentally put in a video, thinking I was getting a movie. I was sick over it.
But, from what I understand, pornography today is vile in its violence toward women and children. It absolutely distorts a view of God’s creation (humans) and perpetuates abuse in a horrid way. Appreciating beauty is normal and good. There is no fine line here between appreciating a beautiful woman (as God’s creation — created in His image) and the lust of porn. Those two postures are worlds apart.
Desley (I wrote Katy originally, but that was a typo. sorry Katy!) – thank you so much for expressing your views about the porn industry, and for sharing about your self. You are not the only one on this blog who was a prostitute at one time. I was too. I identify very much with the woman who washed Jesus feet with her tears, and I understand Jesus’ words “those who are forgiven much, love much.”
I see that apart from Desley’s disclosure, other comments so far haven’t mentioned prostitution. That’s fine. But if anyone has anything else they want to say about prostitution, can we reserve it for another post? We don’t want this post to run wild — it’s already long and that’s okay, but we (the admins and eds at ACFJ) have realised that we need to be mindful of not letting sub-threads develop in too many directions from an original post. So, pretty please, can we not enter into a discussion about prostitution for the moment? Thanks. But of course, if any of our regular commenters want to email me privately, that’s fine.
Of course, this is NOT an invitation for perps and pervets to email me: if they do, their messages will go straight to trash.
“All of this strengthens my point that porn is NOT “every man’s battle” and that the battle of striving for sexual purity in thought is not the same as striving to not use porn.”
Oh thank goodness that makes it clearer. I don’t think it’s good to mix the two issues – as porn is definitely in a different league, and I struggle to believe that my own dad is struggling every day against an impulse to watch degrading sex acts on the internet! I would think that kind of struggle would have “Fruit” in a man’s life that would be detrimental/visible in some way. ?
“I would think that kind of struggle would have “Fruit” in a man’s life that would be detrimental/visible in some way. ?”
I would think so too, Katy. Depending on how long he has had this problem, you might not be able to recognize what has been lost. The “fruit” in his life may even be mistaken for his personality now. If he hasn’t had this problem for long, I hope he breaks free from its grip sooner than later.
“There is no fine line here between appreciating a beautiful woman (as God’s creation — created in His image) and the lust of porn. Those two postures are worlds apart.”
That is a great way to put it, Megan! Claiming that men are drawn to pornography because they are drawn to beauty is akin to making a claim that you are drawn to depictions of tortured dolphins because you are drawn to the beauty of dolphins.
Pornography isn’t about beauty; it is about marring beauty – and both men and women would do well to examine what really is drawing them to pornography. It is not beautiful by any stretch of the imagination. A few years back there were two teenagers in my city charged for urinating on a war memorial. The courts decided that they would deal with their “DISRESPECT” towards war veterans with community service at the war museum, where they would learn the history. I find it significant that urinating on a stone memorial was considered a gross form of disrespect on one hand, but yet in pornography women are constantly being urinated on –and this is not perceived as disrespect towards women? Dan Allender, in a Samaritans Purse conference, explained that our faces more deeply reveal the glory of God than anything else in nature. More than Mount Rushmore, even. Yet in pornography the face of a woman is often the target for a man to ejaculate on. What is the significance of that, I wonder? Marking territory?
I don’t know…sometimes I wonder if we are failing to help rehabilitate porn addicts because we are failing to look beneath the surface to deal with the underlying beliefs.
For myself, I used to be drawn to it because I hated myself for being a woman and it felt more natural to see women degraded and treated like objects. I really thought that this was normal and real. I was vehemently opposed to any idea that sex could be at all related to love. To relate sex to love would be too risky, too painful. I thought women who linked sex with love were idiots and were living in denial.
I also know of some cases in which porn appeals to men because of their hunger for power and control. In porn, the women are the objects for the man’s more important subject. In fact, I think Lundy Bancroft talks about this in his book as well. I think we all agree that porn produces negative attitudes about women in men; but in many cases the pull of pornography is the attitude of male-superiority it is engrossed in. But yet in all of these men’s ministries, the problem is always oversimplified and again, they focus on the external behaviours rather than the attitudes that fuel the behaviour.
Another problem I have, as I think Megan pointed out before, is that too often we are led to believe that men are tempted by some external force (namely, the women in porn) to consume porn. This myth fosters a victim mentality in men and allows them to shift the blame for their choices on to someone else – namely, the woman they are helping to harm. This is a gross overgeneralization and completely disregards the realities of the vast majority of women who enter the industry. In fact, it probably works the other way around. Women and children are more likely to be tempted (or lured) into porn because men consume it, thereby making it profitable for pornographers (and pimps) to exploit the vulnerabilities of young women and children. (Not to mention, this is a counter-biblical belief; James 1:14 insists that “each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.”)
A man’s behavior, betrays his beliefs. What a really good statement. Taken from Bruce McAndless link above, shared by Barb.
By their fruits you shall know them.
Amen~
When I went to my pastor’s wife about a year and a half ago to talk to her about what we were going thru, she actually told me that my children had NO right to come to me and tell me if their dad abused them in any way, and that I was being a blasphemer to my husband by coming to her and tell her what was going on. I just had to sit down, not say a word and take what ever came my way in silence. These word were the nice way of what her actual words were. Our church also had a study on the book “lies women believe” but I never went to any of their studies on anything.
Tersia, did you have a witness to what that pastor’s wife told you?
Her advice could amount to criminal neglect or complicity with or failure to report a crime. Imagine if your kids got sexually molested by their father:– her advice means the kids could not tell you their dad had molested them, and you could not tell anyone in church leadership that your husband had committed the crimes!
Mind you, if that kind of thing were to happen, the last person I’d be telling is that pastor’s wife; I’d be going straight to the police. Forget the coverup brigade at the church.
No; don’t forget them: their sins of abuser enablement need to be denounced from the mountaintops! Ooh I’m angry!
Barbara and Tersia – My first instinct upon reading Teria’s account of what that pastor’s wife told her was to tell her to go find a lawyer and look into suing her, or at least find out who, in her state, regulates counseling. It is malpractice at minimum and I would shout it from the housetops!
Barbara, unfortunately she and I met at Panera Bread and no one else was with us, so no I do not have an actual witness. I did mention the incident to several church members, and their comment was “sounds about right”. One lady told me that she found out by her own experience that if something happens in a family, and the pastor and his wife determine that what happened was not abuse (if not physical, then not abuse), then our pastor and his wife most likely would not agree to do anything about the situation except to offer to pray for or with the people involved. They have a very “sweep it under the rug” mentality. I do not understand why this particular lady still goes there except that she is very dependent on them. She does not have a driver license so church members take her everywhere she has to go. But I do tell every person what our pastor’s wife said at every opportunity. At the time of this meeting, I had called the police out two times previously, but they said that unless I was physically harmed that they could not do anything, so I was hoping that if I approached the church that they might be able to help………..but I found out I was wrong. The church is there for the man and lets them get away with anything. If the wife comes to the church, it is hear-say, but if the husband comes, they believe every word he says, which tells me that churches are very male-chauvinistic towards their members. I no longer attend that church. They are in contact with my husband and starting in July, were trying to counsel with him, but I have not heard a word from anyone except once from the deacon counseling my husband when he asked for my side of the story. I sent a link to my pastor to read Jeff C’s pastor-to-pastor letter and he told me it might be better for me to find another pastor (implying I should just leave the church), and that he did not appreciate me sending him that letter, and that he would not have someone like me in the congregation stirring up trouble. I have a copy of the pastor’s letter since it was an email.
Well Tersia, it’s a shame you don’t have any witness, but never mind. I’m glad you are no longer under that prejudiced pastor and ‘his’ church. (Hmm; wonder when Jesus bequeathed it to him?)
As Ps Crippen explains in his sermon series on The Religion of the Pharisees, true Christians will generally end up being cast out of Pharisee churches. The Pharisees often try the velvet-elbowed nudge first – “We think it would be better for you if you found another pastor,” “We are don’t think there is a place for you any longer in this church.” If that doesn’t work, they may bluntly order you to leave, while taking care to ensure there are no outside witnesses or documentation of the order. Or, if they like they phylacteries really broad and their tassels really long, they may excommunicate the Christian with all pomp and circumstance.
But the Christian can take comfort in knowing that outside the camp there are other true Christians worshiping God in the byways and highways, who will all be revealed at the marriage supper of the Lamb.
Yes, in fact Barb, that is exactly what they did to me. Sounded their huge pomp and circumstance trumpets, revealed everything they could about me to everyone, passed their verdict that there was no abuse in the home, even with witnesses I presented to prove there was, and made a huge parade of disparaging and humiliating me, even revealing areas of abuse that no one should have ever known about and making it all public information. Hanging notices on the walls of the church, etc. They defied God’s word by refusing to listen to the witnesses. The Word says that on the testimony of two or three witnesses, a matter shall be considered true, but they didn’t care what God had to say. They were only interested in making me an example for all other women. They were basically saying, “Look here women – this is what will happen to you, if you ever state the truth and accuse your husband of abusing you!”
Sorry, was going to add, the bible clearly states that we are a helpmeet to our husbands, not implying that we are doormats or slaves in any form. These husbands that get offended that their wives help them by trying to save them money on, directions, or grammar are all abusive men in some sort of way.
“These husbands that get offended that their wives help them by trying to save them money on, directions, or grammar are all abusive men in some sort of way.”
I agree Tersia.
“When I went to my pastor’s wife about a year and a half ago to talk to her about what we were going thru, she actually told me that my children had NO right to come to me and tell me if their dad abused them in any way, and that I was being a blasphemer to my husband by coming to her and tell her what was going on.”
Nobody ever said that to me, thankfully. But I thought myself that if I talked about what my husband was doing in a group set up to “get to the bottom of things” I would be judged for being a bad wife. Doesn’t Proverbs 31 say that the husband is respected at the city gate? Why else would that be in a description of a virtuous woman unless she had something to do with that?
It’s amazing how Scripture can be distorted with bad teaching (or no teaching!) around DV.
I have not had time to read the comments so forgive me if this is pointed out. But DeMoss had never been married and has no children. She has also been rich all her life. I cannot see her having any basic understanding at all for the types of things she so freely gives advice on. For the life of me, I cannot understand why women flock to her teachings.
Lydia – amazing, isn’t it? I mean, if I had the money and means, if I cranked out a book or two, started a radio show, then all of a sudden people start looking at me as if I had some kind of authority. But who is DeMoss? Just a person. And in fact, as you note, a person from a very non-typical fantasyland life.
Gal 2:4 Yet because of false brothers secretly brought in–who slipped in to spy out our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, so that they might bring us into slavery–
Gal 2:5 to them we did not yield in submission even for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.
Gal 2:6 And from those who seemed to be influential (what they were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)–those, I say, who seemed influential added nothing to me.
Okay, I may be way off base here, but I want to share some thoughts that came to me.
When these people like Eliff and DeMoss and others (Piper, McArthur, patriarch movement, etc.) share their views about abuse, marriage and divorce, and believe that the neutralized nouthetic or any other counsel that binds victims to an eternal life of abuse, is fair and equitable to all involved, they are doing nothing more than telling us their very poor world view — and perhaps their very poor view of the true God — Who is a God of justice and equity, mercy and grace. These views they have and counsel they give, seem to be nothing more than “politically correct counseling”, wherein no one actually gets faulted for abusing, but the blame is shared, so as to be fair, and the counselor does not really have to deal with anything hard or bear the brunt for finding the truth and delivering the victims from evil. If both parties are to blame, then the work is easy. You say you are sorry, they say they are sorry, and let’s just move along. Then when the victim cannot just move along because they are so crippled from years and years of abuse, they are faulted as the “hard one” that “can’t forgive” and must not really be a Christian. The counselors hate that their work has been made hard and that the victim refuses to go along with their “politically correct counseling”, and so they blame the victim. There is nothing biblical about it and there is nothing in the Bible that teaches or shares these views, at least that I have found. So, it came to me this morning, that the people who are behaving this way, are simply revealing that they don’t want to be the ones to say, “this is right” or “this is wrong”, because they want to remain neutral. However, we know there is no such thing as neutrality — you are either for or against. You are either teaching truth, or teaching lies. We each have a world view and it seems that they are openly sharing theirs – would it be humanism, or what? I don’t know — but it does seem that they are actually just making certain they do things the politically correct way — which is the way of the world, not God. God always wants truth revealed and always wants justice, so to try to hide it or neutralize it and diminish abuse, just tells us where people are in Christ — or not. Anyone have any thoughts?
In the front of Nancy Leigh DeMoss’s book she states “To my mother, who taught me to recognize many of the lies women believe and who knows the importance and power of the Truth”. The question that comes to my mind when I read that is, what did Nancy’s mom go through in her life to cause her to come up with all these lies? Was Nancy’s dad a narcissistic type of person to where he made his wife believe that everything that was going wrong in their marriage was her problem? From what I have seen and read about Nancy, she had no personal experience to give all this wrong advice.
Yes, Anonymous, I have a thought there. If a person is walking in the Holy Spirit and their motivations are not to please “man” or make a living, then I believe their advice will have a much better chance of truly helping a DV victim. Also, a person that is walking in Christ is not going to have a spirit of pride such as these authors and so many “authorities” in church organizations do. I become very leery of people that seem to have all the answers and judgements of a situation all buttoned up and ready to fire off at will. It shows a lack of humbleness before God and man and a lack of the the necessity of prayerfully trying to put one’s self in the shoes of another, which is the whole idea of being able to empathize with another’s suffering. I have also noiticed that many are willing to pass advice and judgements, yet not willing to get involved in any real and loving, helpful way. They are afraid that their involvement will tarnish their reputation or label them as bad of as meddlers within that organization. This leaves a truly helpless and needy victim even more helpless when those who say they care and love you “in Christ” just walk away. I believe it shows a person’s true relationship with their Lord if they do the right thing no matter what it may cost them in man’s view. I know too many people who are unhappy with their church’s stand on issues such as DV and other issues, yet they stay in those organizations to protect their untarnished “reputation” and maintain appearances. They “take the bad with the good”. I could not disagree more! I am raising my son outside of “church”, and I have to say I believe he is better for it. He is a sweet and caring boy that has a strong sense of empathy with others and what God is really like. I come in contact with many kids raised in churches that are little versions of their cold, judgemental parents that are part of a pharisee-type religion, and I think it is a tragedy to keep this counterfeit religion going.
Others here have mentioned here that if experience has shown us that it is truly possible or likely for offenders to have a 100% change of heart and behavior, we would see this happening around us and in churches, but it simply is not the case. I think that for many teacher’s wacky doctrines to work, they must hold to the idea that DV victims just “hang in there” and “pray more” and “submit more” or “separate for a time”. It is a symptom of their unbiblical and unchristlike doctrines or teachings that are so rampant, yet accepted in church organizations. I stay away for this reason. If I found a church group like Jeff C’s in this area, I might give it a go again. Very hard for me to find a truly biblical, loving, group of believers in the typical “church” setting.
Thanks for sharing here Brian. I think you are right. DeMoss in particular seems to stand in pride here, having never been married or had children. Not that one cannot give godly counsel without having experience in it, but to stick to it like glue, as if it is from God, is quite another, especially with no experience. And yes, there are no testimonies that I know of in my own life, that have seen recovery for abusers or a true changing of the heart toward God. It seems the testimonies I have heard are that the man has brief periods of change, even claiming Christ and living for God, etc., but the motive of the change is still for himself, not really ever for truly living for God. He uses God to get what he wants — his victim back in his grip.
Brian, you just made me see something.
Evolutionists tell us that life evolved from lifeless chemicals and molecules over billions of years… as the chemicals just slushed around in all those lifeless ponds, somehow, just somehow that we can’t quite pinpoint yet, some molecules configured together into living cells complete with immensely complex chains of DNA, nuclei, membranes, the means of self-reproduction, etc. etc. Billions of years of hanging in there and lo and behold, magic! Life sprang from non-life!
Many bible believers ridicule this notion, asking ‘How can life come from non-life, no matter how many billions of years you wait?’
But those same bible believers are telling oppressed victims in dead marriages “Just hang in there – life will come!”
Reality: if you hang out in a dead lifeless pond, you may die.
“The bottom line is what her heart is toward that marriage, because God’s heart is going to be redemption of that marriage.”
I was just reading in 1 Samuel 25 and thought this was significant…
God didn’t leave Abigail under the cruel hand on Nabal to suffer all the fall-out of his idiocy, God struck the “churlish” Nabal dead. Period.
It gets even more interesting when you look up the word God used to describe the evil Nabal:
The KJV renders it “churlish.” The word comes from the Hebrew ‘qâsheh’, which means “severe (in various applications): – churlish, cruel, grievous, hard ([-hearted], thing), heavy, + impudent, obstinate, prevailed, rough (-ly), sore, sorrowful, stiff ([-necked]), stubborn, + in trouble.”
The same word is also used in the following passages:
Exodus 1:13-14 – “But the more they afflicted them, the more they multiplied and grew. And they were grieved because of the children of Israel. And the Egyptians made the children of Israel to serve with rigour: And they made their lives bitter with HARD bondage, in morter, and in brick, and in all manner of service in the field: all their service, wherein they made them serve, was with rigour.”
Deuteronomy 26:6-7 – “And the Egyptians evil entreated us, and afflicted us, and laid upon us HARD bondage: And when we cried unto the Lord God of our fathers, the Lord heard our voice, and looked on our affliction, and our labour, and our oppression”
Isaiah 14:3-4 – “And it shall come to pass in the day that the Lord shall give thee rest from thy sorrow, and from thy fear, and from the HARD bondage wherein thou wast made to serve, That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!”
In all three of these cases, it was that word alone [churlish] that took a good thing (regular work or service) and turned it into bondage. This means that when you introduce “churlish” to a marriage, that marriage becomes bondage by default.
God is in the business of setting us free from bondage (as the above passages affirm). That is the heart of God. Nabal was an abusive man and this is even more clear when you consider the fact that Abigail did NOT tell her husband she was going to meet David to smooth things over with him.
Now, God doesn’t typically deal with wicked people these days by striking them dead (what other recourse was there for Abigail in that time and culture?) but we can still see God’s heart in this abusive marriage. Why didn’t God change Nabal’s heart? Why didn’t he bless Abigail for her wisdom and godliness and then leave her to stew in her abusive marriage and trust Him? Why didn’t He blame her for Nabal’s cruelty and drunkenness– at least a little?
He did none of the above. In fact, He Himself freed Abigail up to marry a man after God’s own heart.
By God’s word alone we know His heart.
Game over.
We have already published three posts on this blog about Abigail:
Sapphira and Abigail, Part 1
I’d particularly draw your attention to this comment from Jeff S in this thread, about using historical narrative to understand or confirm doctrine.
Sapphira and Abigail, Part 2
Learning to be an Abigail, not a Sapphira.
Nabal and Abigail have been on my mind for four years Desley. I cannot get over how she was so insubordinate to Nabal, called her husband an idiot TO THE KING, and saved all their ***es. And then God struck Nabal dead.
Yup. You can’t read that story without picturing what our modern day Pharisees would have done to Abigail, can you?